Ancestors of Doug and Sheila Soutar



Andrew Archer Soutar and Elizabeth Ferguson

Andrew (27) and Elizabeth (21) were married on 4th December 1866. He had been born on 2nd February 1839 at Bendochy, the son of John Soutar, farm overseer and Janet Gillespie. Elizabeth had been born on 5th May 1845, the daughter of William Ferguson, linen manufacturer and Janet McKenzie. Andrew was a grocer at the time of the wedding and Elizabeth is described as "housekeeper" which probably meant that she ran or assisted in the running of the home.

Family tradition had it that Andrew became a master grocer with a business at the cross in Coupar Angus (on the corner of Athole Street and George Street). No evidence can be found to confirm this location for his shop.

According to Valuation Rolls, Andrew had from 1860-61 occupied a house at 14 Commercial Street, Coupar Angus. By 1874 -75 he was occupying both this house and one of the shops under it which he ran as a grocers. When the owner of the properties, Miss Euphemia McLeish, died around 1878, Andrew bought the properties along with the shop at no.16, from her heirs. No.16 he let to John Saddler, a shoemaker and he continued in business as a grocer at no.12 until 1893-94 when family tradition says he "went bankrupt". He then moved to Rustic Place, Dundee. An entry in the 1893 Slaters Directory lists: Andrew A Soutar, Grocer, Commercial Street.

Information from the censuses is that by 1871 three children, William, Jessie and James had been born and the family were living in Blairgowrie Road, with servant, Susan Robertson. (dist. 279,book 2 page 10.)

Between the 1871 and 1881 censuses, Andrew and Elizabeth moved house several times being listed in Valuation Rolls as living at New Road (now Union Street) and George Street.

The 1881 census sees the family complete and living at Commercial Street: 1881 census Perth, Coupar Angus. dist. 279, bk. 6, page 1

Andrew Archer Soutar	h  m	41	grocer (emp. 2 boys)	Perth, Bendochy
Elizabeth Soutar		w  m	34				Perth, Coupar Angus
William Soutar		s  u	13	scholar			Perth Coupar Angus
Jessie Soutar		d  	12	scholar			Perth, Coupar Angus
James A Soutar		s	11	scholar			Perth, Coupar Angus
George F Soutar		s	 9	scholar			Perth, Coupar Angus
John A Soutar		s	 7	scholar			Perth, Coupar Angus
Lizzie H M Soutar		d	 3				Perth, Coupar Angus
Catherine G Reid     serv. u	17	general serv.		Perth, Bankfoot

By 1891, the address is given as 12-14 Commercial Street, William is no longer in the family home, James is a clerk, John a grocer's assistant, and George is described as an "art student". This seems peculiar as he later became a maths teacher. Perhaps the enumerator was told George was studying "arts" and misunderstood.

What happened to their family? William married Jeannie Moncrieff and emigrated to United States where they had a son, Harold. Contact was lost but when Harold hit hard times he wrote to the family in Scotland and received some help from John. He may also have asked for further help later through his sister, Lizzie but after discussions with her nephews, Douglas, Stanley and Kenneth no help was given on this occasion.

Jessie never married and made a living by taking boarders, first at the foot of Shepherds Loan and later in Airlie Place.

In 1922, James (with a partner) purchased a bag factory from his uncle A.B.Crichton (Bailie Crichton). This enterprise eventually ran into financial difficulties, James and his wife both turned to drink and shortly after her death he was found, in an alleyway, dead and robbed. The police suspected murder and asked John if they should pursue investigations. He however, thinking of the effect on James's son, Hamish who was still in his 'teens asked them not to proceed.

George studied mathematics at University, married Helen Stalker and later became a teacher of maths in London.

In the 1890's, when the grocer's business wasn't doing well the family moved to 1 Rustic Place, Dundee. Here, John was apprenticed to Willie Miller, Grocer, High Street. Although his experience in his father's grocers in Coupar Angus must have been of help in gaining this apprenticeship, Bailie Alex Crichton, his mother's brother-in-law, was also influential in getting him started there. Later he became commercial traveller for Van den Berg, margarine manufacturers. He was very successful in this, not by being the stereotype high-pressure salesman but just by being likeable and getting on well with people. He eventually was to rise to district manager in the Unilever organisation. John married Sarah Robbie on 18 July 1807.

Lizzie became a milliner with D.M. Brown where she remained until her marriage to Willie Peddie-Petrie on 9 August 1908. She died on 9th January 1975 at the age of 97.

Andrew Died 22 March 1905 at 1 Rustic Place interred 25 March and Elizabeth died 28 Apr 1910 interred 30 April 1910 both Western Cemetery, Dundee. Jessie was also buried there on 20 Dec 1930.

Ground sold register: Compartment sold 4207 145c Elizabeth Ferguson or Soutar acquired 1905 Mar 25.

The origin of the name Andrew Archer Soutar has been lost in time but it appears to have been bestowed in honour of Andrew Archer, of Jordanstone, who owned and ran Balbrogie farm where John Soutar worked for many years. The Archer part was passed down to Andrew's son John who later bestowed it posthumously on his grandfather when he reported his father's death to the Registrar!

1871 Census Perth, Coupar Angus. Dist 279 Book 6 page 19

Blairgowrie Road.

Andrew  Soutar	 	h 	m 30	grocer 		 	Perth, Bendochy
Elizabeth Soutar		w	m 25				Perth, Coupar Angus
William Soutar		s           3				Perth Coupar Angus
Jessie Soutar		d           2				Perth, Coupar Angus
James Soutar		s           1	scholar			Perth, Coupar Angus
Susan Robertson     	servant  	u 18	Domestic servant		Forfar, Tullimet.

1891 census Perth, Coupar Angus Dist. 292 Dist. 6 page 10.

12-14 Commercial Street.

Andrew A. Soutar  		h   m 50	grocer 		employer		Perth, Bendochy
Lizzie Soutar		w   m 43					Perth, Coupar Angus
Jessie Soutar		d   u 22					Perth, Coupar Angus
James A Soutar		s   u 21	clerk		employed		Perth, Coupar Angus
George F Soutar		s   u 19	art student			Perth, Coupar Angus
John A Soutar		s   u 17	grocers assistant  employed		Perth, Coupar Angus
Lizzie H M Soutar      	d     13 	scholar				Perth, Coupar Angus


James Robbie and Sarah Duncan

James Robbie and Sarah Duncan were married on 31st December 1879 at Balmerino. She from Balmerino, he from Benvie. They had met when she was ladysmaid at Balruddery House and he, although at times, a journeyman miller with his father at Benvie, also worked as coachman at Balruddery House.

There is a family tale that he missed the train which, a few days before the wedding had gone down into the river in the Tay Bridge disaster (or alternatively he looked at the weather and decided it was too bad to use the bridge and travelled by ferry instead). Whichever version you incline to it does seem probable that he had crossed the river that day, the Sunday before the wedding, and possibly his last opportunity to see Sarah before the big day. Whatever the truth it doesn't take much to imagine what the major topic of conversation must have been at the wedding.

Shortly after the wedding they moved into one of the cottages at Benvie while his father, Andrew, was in the mill. Their first child, Sarah, was born on 15 September 1880. In the 1881 census for Liff and Benvie (Dist 301) they are in Benvie Cottage which had two rooms with windows: (Census enumerator James Robbie)

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

Robbie James h m 26 Miller, Corn & Barley Forfar, Inverarity Robbie Sarah C w m 27 Fife, Balmerino Robbie Sarah J d 6mo Angus, Liff & Benvie Many years later Sarah recalled walking round from the cottage by way of the "spoutie" (the pipe on the bank of the burn, which was the water supply for the houses) and having boiled egg for tea when she arrived at her gran's. The distance between cottage and mill is only twenty yards and the "long" way by the spoutie only a few hundred yards but to a young child this must have seemed a great adventure. As the family continued to grow in the early 80's, Andrew and his wife, Charlotte moved to New Mill of Knapp and James and his family moved into the mill house at Benvie and were responsible for adding a second story to the mill house.
By the time of the 1891 census the family was:

Robbie James		h m	27	Miller, meal and flour	Forfar, Inverarity
Robbie Sarah C		w m	28	Millers wife		Fife, Balmerino
Robbie Sarah J		d	10	scholar			Forfar Benvie
Robbie Charlotte D		d	 9	scholar			Forfar, Benvie	
Robbie Catherine Sime	d	 7	scholar			Forfar, Benvie
Robbie Andrew		s	 5				Forfar, Benvie
Robbie Agnes		s	 1				Forfar, Benvie

The children attended the nearby Liff School in their younger years and when older, Harris Academy in Dundee. They travelled there by train using either Liff station or sometimes Invergowrie station both of which involved a long walk just to reach the station and of course another walk from Magdalen Green Station in Dundee to the school.

All the family as they grew up helped around the mill and Sarah remembered one occasion when she was raking grain on the drying room floor. Unknown to her the "granny" (or rotating ventilator) above somehow caught fire. Her father carried water up and doused the flames but without warning her which resulted in her being soaked with dirty water.

One of the secrets of success in milling was to be first on the market and James would ride round the district assessing which farm would have the grain ready first and then negotiating with the farmer to buy it and so be ahead of others, particularly the "Peter Pan" oats man with whom he competed in a friendly way. The mill produced oatmeal, lentils and hen food.

On leaving school, Sarah became a pupil-teacher at Blackness School and also taught at the Episcopal School in Dundee before teaching at Liff School. Despite being a country girl, Sarah was scared of the dark and one night, as she walked down Grey Walk on her way from Liff station she was frightened by an approaching coach and drew right into the hedge. Martin White of Grey House saw this from the coach and asked the coachman who it was, receiving the reply "Sarah Robbie". He later visited James and told him the story and as a result she took digs in Commercial Street, Dundee. About this time Sarah witnessed some of the earliest powered flights (by Preston Watson) which took place in the Carse. She was not impressed and later said "It just went up, went a little bit and came down again".

Catherine (always known as Kate) became a child nurse at Balruddery House and later governess there. Andrew became a paper mill engineer in Invergowrie. Andrew was a bit of a rogue when younger and was known to collect payments due to his father and not pass the money on! Agnes became a fever nurse, Jemima (Mima or Mim) worked in Mathers Hotel, Dundee as well as helping around the mill. As a result of lifting heavy sacks from the top floor and carrying them down narrow stairs in the mill, Mim always, to the end of her life, went down stairs sideways. Later, after the death of both her son and her husband within a very short space of time she worked as a clerkess with Dundee Corporation Transport. John, the youngest, became a forrester. Daughter, Sarah married John Soutar on 18th July 1907

Later, Charlotte and Mim looked after their mother, Sarah, who by this time had developed Parkinsons Disease. Perhaps as a result of this Sarah developed a drink problem. Each day the daughters managed to get their mother up from her bed but, during a period when Charlotte and Mim took a break and Kate took over, the change in routine was too much for Sarah. From then on their mother wouldn't get up again and spent the rest of her life in bed although she always kept herself immaculate, perhaps a legacy of her time as a ladysmaid.

Hilda's memories of visiting her granny are of sitting on the hair sofa, getting a "granny sooker" out of the mahogany chest and keeping quiet! Sarah died on 5th November 1924.

James died 25th Jan 1940 at 85 Magdalen Yard Road, the home of his daughter, Sarah and his son-in law John.

Many years later, an elderly resident in Benvie remembered Miller Robbie (as he was always called) being asked to say grace at a social event in Muirhead. His prayer very simply was: "For Christ's sake, Amen".

James enjoyed curling and was a prominent member of Balruddery Curling Club from its foundation in 1892.


Alexander Neilson and Christina Lindsay (known as Wilson)

Alex and Chris were married on 31 December 1875 at her home, Kylesland, Coatdyke. He was aged 29, an engine worker and a bachelor of Nelsons Land, Whifflet, and she aged 21, a factory hand (the 1871 census says cotton weaver) and a spinster.

Six years later, the 1881 census sees the young family at:

Nelsons Land, Whifflet 652/3 bk 7 pg. 30

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

Neilson Alexander 		h m  	 37     	 Iron works labourer	 Lks, Old Monklands
Nelson Christina           w m	 26				 Lks, New Monklands
Nelson William	 	s	  4				 Lks, Old Monklands
Nelson John	 	s	  2				 Lks, Old Monkland

James was born later that year on 20 August 1881 at Nelsons Land and a daughter, Jeannie was born two years after that.

By 1891 the situation has changed and the census shows at:

47 Calder Street (652/2 bk. 36 pg41)

Neilson Jane Horne		h        w	80				Lks. Bothwell
Neilson Alexander		s        m	45	General Labourer employed	Lks Old Monklands
Neilson William   		g-son  	u	14	General Labourer employed	Lks Old Monklands
Neilson John		g-son  	u	12	scholar			Lks Old Monklands

and at:

45 Calder Street: (652/2 bk. 36 pg42)

McInnes	  Adam	h     m	44	Iron shingler			Lks Shotts
McInnes	 Agnes	w    m	51					Lks Bothwell
Neilson James 	nephew	9					Lks Old Monklands
Neilson Jane 	niece	7					Lks Old Monklands

So the family is split, two children living with Alex and his mother and the other two living with the McInnes's. Christine is not with the family. From the marriage certificate of Jimmy to Jeannie Forrester she is apparently alive in 1902. A comment made by Jeannie years later was that Alexander's sister, Agnes (McInnes) was "a difficult bitch who caused Christina's breakdown and trouble between various members of the family". Could the breakdown have caused Christina to be Institutionalised? After much searching, an entry was found in the 1891 census for Old Monklands Poor House, Lunatic Wards and Fever Hospital, 652/2 dist 43 pg6:

Neilson Christina m 36 patient, housewife born Coatbridge.

With the exception of the birthplace, which had also been wrong in the 1881 census, and which the authorities might not have been sure of in any case, this would describe the mother of our family.

Jimmy's daughter, Nettie, (born 1904) didn't remember her grandmother at all and said they had all but lost touch with her father's family at least partly because her father had been brought up by an aunt. She thought, however, that she could remember seeing her grandfather, perhaps around 1915. Nettie also thought that perhaps her grandfather worked in the local steel works and she recalled mention of a drink problem.

Registers of death for the district had been searched repeatedly from 1881 to 1930 under Wilson, Neilson, Nelson and Lindsay without success. Only when the search was widened to include the whole of Scotland were the deaths found. Alex and Christina both died in Hartwood Asylum, Shotts.

Christina's life seems to have been particularly sad. No father is named on her birth certificate although John Wilson, who reported her birth to the Registrar, is named as father on her marriage certificate and no parents at all are recorded on her death certificate. It appears that the family was not contacted when she died and a clerk reported the death to the Registrar. She had been in an Institution for about half her life, her existence virtually forgotten by her family. Institutional records might be available for research after one hundred years if they have survived.

Nor were things easy for Alexander, with his wife institutionalised, he was left with four young children to bring up, albeit with the help of his sister and her husband. If he had a drink problem it is perhaps understandable.

Despite the problems, the family grew up. Jimmy became a grocer's assistant with Reids Grocers, Coatbridge and later opened his own shop, in Lang Loan. Much later, having been a life-long dog lover, he closed the shop and opened boarding kennels at "Elton Mar" in Church Street, Coatbridge. This proved to be his first successful enterprise and one, which he continued until his death although contact with animals probably exacerbated his asthma.

With lack of contact in the family, little in the way of personal information has come down through the generations. One exception is Jimmy's school photographs, although he can be identified on only two out of four. Other exceptions are a photo of Jimmy's brother, John and his wife.

21. Christina Wilson

On her birth certificate, Christina is Christina Lindsay. No father is named. John Wilson, however registered the birth and said he was present at the birth. Her mother was a widow having been married to John Baird by whom she had children, Alexander, William Lindsay and Thomas Douglas. John Wilson and Christina married the following year.


James Forrester and Janet Hamilton

James Forrester and Janet Hamilton married on 6th June 1876 at Rushbuck near Cumbernauld. He aged 25, a carter, son of Joseph Forrester and Janet Stark of Woodmill, Kirkintilloch and she aged 25 (although the certificate says 26), a dairymaid, the daughter of Alex Hamilton and Jane (or Jean) Cuthel of Rushbuck farm in the parish of Falkirk.

Now nothing remains of this farm except a widening in the track which passed through the steading and a well!

Their first child, Jane (later known more commonly as Jeannie) was born at Dalshannon, Kirkintilloch on 28th April 1877 when James is described as a foreman miller. A contemporary map shows only three houses in Dalshannon. Today, Dalshannon is in the middle of a housing scheme in the new town of Cumbernauld but there are still three houses on the sites of the 1877 ones but which one Jeannie was born in is a matter for conjecture.

1878 was the year of the crash of the City of Glasgow Bank in which the young couple was said to have lost money.

By the time a son, Joseph, was born to the couple on twenty-sixth January 1879, the family had moved to Coatbridge where James had become a dairyman and the family was living at 27 English Square, Dundyvan, Coatbridge. A daughter, Jessie, was born in 1880 at the same address.

Although the Monklands area they had moved to had been described in the Statistical Account a century earlier as an "immense garden", the coming of the iron industry in the 1830's had changed its character completely and, by the 1880's, English Square typified the lowest end of the social scale. Surrounding it were railways, canals, foundries, iron & steel works, a brick works, a slaughterhouse and an electricity generating plant. The workers rows (the "raa's" in the local dialect) had been built by works owners as close as possible to their places of business. In Long Row to the North of English Square, there was even a coal pit in the middle of the row, between the gable ends of two houses!

English Square took its name from the influx of English workers which occurred in the early years of the century when the iron industry was expanding although by the 1881 census only three householders in the Square were of English birth and a significant proportion were from Ireland.

The 1881 census for Dist 652/2, Dist. 7, Pg. 13 has at 27 English Square:

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

Forrester James h m 31 Dairyman & grain merchant Dumbarton, Cumbernauld Forrester Janet w m 31 Stirling, Falkirk Forrester Jane d 3 Dumbarton, Kirkintilloch Forrester Joseph s 2 Lks, Coatbridge Forrester Jessie d 5mo Lks, Coatbridge Frew Catherine serv 15 General serv. dom. Lks, Coatbridge

Being a Dairyman and Grain Merchant and having a servant does not fit in with the surroundings in English Square and it seems possible that James may have had business premises, perhaps a shop with a byre, somewhere else. It is also possible that he delivered milk and grain, by horse and cart, the customers coming out to have tins filled from churns but where, in this case did he get the milk? The suspicion must be that he ran the sales side of the business, selling milk, oatmeal and lentils for example, while she ran the dairy, hence the need for a "servant" to look after the children. Reference to a street directory or business directory might yield information about any such dairy but unfortunately all Directories were destroyed in a fire in Coatbridge Library some time ago.

Early in the year following the census, however, tragedy struck with the death of James on 12 January 1882 This was the result of "ulceration of the stomach and bowel". He was buried in lair no. 29P in Old Monkland New Burial Ground, the plot costing 3:15:- Stg. No record of Confirmation or Inventory has been found, perhaps not surprisingly considering the unexpectedness of his death. Janet (sometimes known as Jean) was left to bring up the family on her own, not helped by the death of daughter Jessie shortly afterwards.

One photograph exists of James and his wallet has been kept and in it a notebook with his signature and address (when he stayed with his parents at Hole farm, Cumbernauld).

It appears that Janet got at least some financial help from both her father-in-law and from her uncle, William. She built property at 42-50 Academy Street, Coatbridge, comprising a tenement incorporating a dairy, a byre and hen houses. At one time one of their cows contacted foot and mouth disease and, rather than inform the authorities and have the whole herd (about 4 or 5) destroyed, she isolated the infected animal and treated it herself, feeding it on raw chips to give it some sustenance. The poor beast was described as filling the whole trough and the area round about with foam from its mouth. It did survive, but as daughter, Jeannie said years later "never did well after that".

1891 census 652/2 bk.032 p6.
48 Academy Street

Forrester Janet	h  wid	40	dairykeeper	employer        	LKS, Falkirk
Forrester Jane	d	12	dairymaid		employed          Dumbarton, Kirkintilloch
Forrester Joseph	s		scholar			    	LKS, Coatbridge

In Coatbridge 1897, out of the 126 shops in the town, 66 sold alcohol!

The dairy at Academy Street was open from 7am till 11pm and even so people would come in before 7 saying "No open yet?" and at 11 p.m. saying "Why are you closing?" The children, of course, both helped in the dairy as soon as they were old enough. Joe, who had been a bright boy, fell and struck his head on a desk soon after starting at school. This was thought to be the cause of his remaining "simple" for the rest of his life, never progressing beyond the capabilities of a young child. He was, however, capable of carrying out routine manual tasks in a reliable fashion and helped around his mother's dairy, his brother-in-law's kennels and latterly at Jeannie's son-in-law's farm. In his later years it was thought that a brain tumour was the more likely cause of his disability.

In those days, the quantities purchased by customers would be small. There were no refrigerators, indeed most customers would have no space in their houses to store anything and would buy for immediate use only. Visits would be made to the shops, several times a day, with an order such as an ounce (25 grams) of butter, a glass of milk, a tin of treacle (the customer brought her own tin and it was filled from the barrel), two ounces of sugar. Purchases of such small quantities continued in many places until the 1950's. One story of these times is of a customer who regularly came into Chris's (Janet's grand-daughter) butchers shop in Bellshill asking for "A penny worth of ham cuttin's or onything at a'!"

Jeannie often repeated the story about one customer, Mary Ann, coming into the dairy for a tumbler of milk. She meant to put the tumbler on the counter but looked away as she put it down and missed the counter completely, the tumbler fell and smashed. A shocked Mary Ann said " Oh my God that's the tumbler Pat stole at Lourdes". (Jeannie always laughed at her own stories and loved stories with an anti-Roman Catholic bias).

Another favourite story was about the maid who left and gave both children a penny for helping her. For the dog she left twopence. Why? Because the dog, unknown to the family, had been helping more. The girl had apparently been putting the dirty plates down for the dog to lick clean thus saving herself a lot of work.

Stories about her mother recounted by Jeannie in later years include one about Janet representing herself in court in an action to claim payment from someone who was due her money - and winning the case. Another which occurred when police came to her door one morning asking if she had seen a man being murdered outside her gate the previous night. She truthfully replied that she hadn't since she had only seen a woman dancing on a man's chest! As it transpired no murder had been committed and the police had been trying to scare her into telling more than she knew. Finally there is the story of the time when Janet didn't bother to go and vote in an election. Someone remonstrated with her and she decided to go to the polling station at the last minute, arriving there just before it closed at 9.00p.m. As she climbed the stairs to the door, supporters of the candidate she would not be voting for shouted, "The knock's chapped". Janet, however went in and was the last person to vote before the poll closed and as a result her man was elected by one vote!


Wm. Rae Valentine and Ann Jenkins

At the time of their wedding on 21st May 1867, William Rea (or Rae) Valentine was a stoker in a jute mill and Ann Jenkins was a power loom weaver. Both were aged 23. They were married at her home in Butters Loan, Lochee and it is interesting to note that although she had attended school (see 1851 census) she "signed" the marriage register with her mark. Two people witnessed the making of this mark (one of whom was Thomas Gow, whom her mother would shortly marry). Presumably schools at this time did not regard it as important that girls should learn to read and write and would concentrate on practical skills such as knitting and sewing.

The young couple moved in to a house at 16 South Church Street, Lochee. Where their family began to grow: Tom 1868, William 1870 (at Mills Land, South Church Street), Lochee,

1871 Census Dundee, Lochee 282/5.

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

16 South Church Street.

William Valentine h m 26 fireman's labourer Angus, Forfar Ann Do. w m 26 Angus, Lochee Thomas G s 2 Angus, Lochee William s 7mo. Angus, Lochee

There followed David 1873, John 1875, Helen 1878, Alexander 1879 and James 1881.

By 1881 they had moved to 32 Church Street where they lived in a house with two windowed rooms:

1881 Census Dundee, Lochee 282/5

32 South Church Street.

William Valentine h m 36 Factory fireman Forfar Ann Valentine w m 36 House duties Lochee Thomas Gow Valentine s 12 App. Butcher Lochee William Valentine s 10 scholar Lochee David Valentine s 8 scholar Lochee John Valentine s 6 Lochee Helen Valentine d 4 Lochee Alexr Jack Valentine s 2 Lochee James Craig Valentine s 2mo Lochee

Margaret was born in 1883 and finally Catherine in 1885.

The 1891 Census (Lochee 252/5 page 44) sees the family complete at 32 South Church Street.


William Valentine h m 46 Stoker, jute mill X Forfar Ann Valentine w m 46 Lochee Thomas Valentine s u 22 Railway stoker X Lochee John Valentine s u 16 Railway porter X Lochee Hellen Valentine d 14 Power loom weaver (jute) X Lochee Alexr. Valentine s 12 scholar Lochee James Valentine d 10 scholar Lochee Catherine Valentine d 6 scholar Lochee

William is not in the family home but is to be found serving his time as a blacksmith at the smiddy in Liff Village.

Liff Village (301 dist 1 Page 15)

Andrew Philip		h  	m  60 	Blacksmith		X	Forfar, Arbroath
Isabella Philip 		w  	m  72	B smith wife			Forfar, Arbirlot
Isabella Philips		G-dau    u  22	Gen serv			X	Forfar, Liff
William Valentine		boarder  u  20	Blacksmith apprentice	X	Forfar, Lochee
William Hackney		boarder  u  19	Blacksmiths apprentice	X	Forfar, Liff

Two doors away, with his family, away lives another blacksmith, Peter Balhary who was Andrew Philips son-in-law. It is interesting to note that at least four blacksmiths and two apprentices were required in Liff at that time.

As can be seen from the foregoing, during all this time William had remained a stoker in a mill but by 1902-3 he appears for the first time in the Dundee Directory in business as a coal merchant, "W Valentine & Son" located at 8 South Church Street. In 1907-8 the firm moved to 80 South Road and by 1911 the description "Coach Proprietor" had been added to the title of the business. A new site for the business had also been found, Camperdown Stables, 164 High Street, Lochee, while the family lived at 78 Kirk Street. (Church Street became Kirk Street when Dundee took over Lochee). By 1913 "Coach Hirer" had been added to the title. The family assisted in the business - David carried coal, his second wife bundled sticks. William jnr., who ran his own Blacksmith business, dealt with mechanical things, Catherine, who ran a stationer and tobacconist business at 93 South Road and apparently at one time a Pawn Brokers, dealt with the business side.

The firm was the first to own a Rolls Royce hearse in Dundee, David and his mother going to collect it from the manufacturers. One of David's children could remember Ann in tears worrying about the huge outlay (some of the money for the hearse had been lent to the firm by David). Work for the hearse came from, among others, Ned McHugh, undertaker in Brook Street, who, according to an oral history tape in the Wellgate Library, Dundee, "done a' the R.C. funerals".

On the same tapes, the same speaker refers to the Valentines having "mainly Hansom cabs", owning twenty horses and carrying jute from the docks.

Another speaker describes "Valentine and Company" as having a brake with two horses which was hired by jute workers for evening drives to Birkie and round about. The workers paid for this by having a having a "bunce up" (they collected together the money)

At one time the firm also owned the horse drawn "Birkie Bus" which ran from the end of the West Church, Lochee to Birkhill Inn, Birkhill. A further speaker describes the Valentines as delivering mail
in the Birkhill area.

William died in 1923 and Ann in 1924. Bequests from their estates were:
William's estate - Catherine Mary to get the burying ground in Balgay Cemetery. The business to be valued and Catherine to be offered it at valuation with time to pay. Life- rent use of furniture, plate, pictures etc. to wife Ann (according to the will, most actually belonged to Catherine already). On wife's death realise all and pay Catherine 230, Thomas 100, David 80, Alexander 80. To the children of the late Helen Valentine or Fleming 100 divided equally, William 200, John 200. Granddaughter (daughter of David) 20. Anything remaining to be divided in above proportions.

Ann's estate - Catherine Mary Valentine to get furniture, jewellery, etc. Stock to be valued and Catherine Mary to be offered it at valuation with three years to pay if she accepts. Husband William had left 1010 to people in his will but did not leave sufficient funds to pay this so remainder is to be divided in similar proportions: i.e. 99 parts, 23 to Catherine, 10 to Thomas, 8 to Alexander, 8 to David, Helen's children to get 10, William 20, John 20, Alex to get his in 5 installments if still unmarried but to get the whole remaining amount if he marries. (This last presumably inserted because of Sandy's liking for the bottle and to prevent him drinking too much)

Cathie accepted the offer to buy the business and she continued to run it until 1940 when she sold out to McLeans Garage and continued to work for them for another six years.

Note: Catherine, in reporting her father's death, said her grandfather (David Valentine) had been a public house keeper in East High Street, Forfar. No documentary evidence of this has been found. A second David Valentine, who was a wine merchant, did stay near her grandfather in Mid-Street, Lochee but he is not connected to the family.

The gravestone in Balgay Cemetery reads: Erected by William Valentine and Ann Jenkens his wife in memory of their daughter Margaret who died 30th Sept 1888 aged 51/2 yr also Bella who died 10th March 1911 aged 42 years. The above William Valentine died 11th January 1923 aged 78 yr. and the above Ann Jenkens died 25th June 1924 aged 79 years also their youngest daughter Catherine died 2nd November 1972.

26. Robert Smart and Ann Neish

Robert, son of David Smart and Isabella Innes was 40 when he married Annie Neish, aged 25, the daughter of James Neish and Ann Stewart. The wedding took place on the 5th December 1867 at Windsor Place, Dundee following the proclamation of banns in the parish of Liff and Benvie, the parish in which Lochee was situated. Robert was a labourer's overseer and Ann a power loom weaver, both lived in Lochee High Street.

The marriage and the births of their three children, James Neish Smart, born 18th February 1868 at Lochee, Isabella Innes Smart born at Lochee 1st January 1873 and David Nicoll Smart born at Lochee on 1st July 1876 were all recorded in the family Bible. The Bible has been destroyed but the Family Register (see scrapbook) has been retained and kept up to date by their grandson, Willie Valentine. It is interesting to note that, over a hundred years later, when information was being gathered for this history Willie "moved" the date of the marriage to 1866 to place it at a more respectable distance from birth of their firstborn! Such loyalty!

In the 1969-70 Dundee Street Directory for Lochee, Robert Smart appears as "overseer" living at 31 Park Place. This seems to be the only relevant directory entry in any year.

The 1871 census sees the young family at 13 Loans Road Lochee:

Robert Smart h m 42 labourers overseer Perthshire, Collace Ann Smart w m 28 Forfarshire, Lundie James Smart s 3 Forfarshire, Lundie

In 1873 Isa was born at 8 Park Place at this time Robert is recorded as living at Bell and Sime's Land. This address so far has not been traced.

By 1881 they are at 303 Loons Road, 282/3 dist 26 page 17:

Smart Robert h m 45 Cleaning overseer Perth, Collace Smart Ann w m 38 Forfar, Lundie Smart James s 13 Forfar. Lundie Smart Isabella d 8 Forfar, Lundie Smart David s 4 Forfar, Lundie

In 1889, the Congregational Record of St Luke's United Presbyterian Church, Lochee records the accession to the roll of R. Smart and Mrs. Smart and also the marriage, on July 19th of Mr. James Neish Smart to Miss Jane Ann Young Findlay at Liff Road School.

In 1891 the family are at 3 Tofthill, Lochee. 282/5 dist 8 page 42:

Smart Robert h m 56 Inspector of clensing Perth, Collace Smart Ann w m 48 Forfar, Lundie Smart David s u 14 factory worker Forfar, Lundie Smart Isabella d u 18 sack machinist Forfar, Lundie Neish Ann m-in l w 77 Forfar, Lundie Neish James br-in-l 26 mercantile clerk Forfar, Lochee

Although the Family Bible says all the children were born in Lochee, the censuses for some reason, consistently give Lundie as the birthplace.

Annie died from peritonitis on May 10th 1891.

Robert's date of death has not been found despite repeated searches of the records although he must have been alive in 1893 when he received a silver box. This box is inscribed:

"Presented by a number of friends to Mr Robert Smart as a token of their esteem. Lochee 1st March 1893". A photo of the box is included in the scrapbook.

It may be that he moved to live with one of his family in England (where death records haven't been checked) although there is no family tradition to back this up and the silver box mentioned above is in the possession of the family in Dundee indicating, perhaps, that he died there.


David Fraser and Isabella Ferguson

David Fraser was born 8th Oct 1850 his parents being David Fraser and Janet (or Jessie) McIntosh.

Isabella Ferguson was the eldest of the three daughters of Alan Ferguson and Elizabeth Fawns. She had been born on 25th June 1855. Before she was sixteen, Isabella was a powerloom weaver.

David and Isabella were married on 29 December 1876 at 14 Rose Street, Lochee he, aged 24 and living at 45 Pitalpin Street was a jute mill overseer and she, aged 21 living at 14 Rose Street was a power loom weaver. It seems likely that they met when they both worked in the same Lochee factory. They had a family of seven, the oldest being James born 25 Sept 1877 at Flemings Land, 25 Pitalpin Street, and the youngest Robert born 26 Dec 1899. It is said that by the time the last child was born, the oldest, James, was reprimanding his parents for having more children!

In 1881they were living in Archibalds Lane, Lairds Land:

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

1881 census Dundee, Lochee 252/5 dist. 2 page 18.

Fraser David h m 28 Overseer, Jute mill Perth, Blairgowrie Fraser Isabella w m 25 Forfar, Liff Fraser James s u 3 Forfar Lochee Fraser William s u 1 Forfar Lochee

Around 1890 the growing family moved to 4 Isla Street a house which had been specially enlarged to three rooms for David who was now a jute mill overseer in Isla Street Works. The 1891 census finds them there:

1891 Dundee fourth district (282/4) dist.46 page 11. 4 Isla St.

Fraser David h m 38 Jute spinning overseer X Perth,Blairgowrie Fraser Isabella w m 35 Forfar, Lochee Fraser James s u 13 Jute spinning worker X Forfar, Lochee Fraser William s u 11 scholar Forfar, Lochee Fraser Jessie d u 3 Forfar, Lochee Fraser David s u 11mo Forfar, Lochee

Isabella was said to have been a very nice natured person who had a difficult time with her husband who eventually became alcoholic. As a result James and some others in the family were teetotal.

David died aged 69 on 28 July 1922 in Dundee District Asylum, Liff of heart disease. Isabella died aged 74 on 12 August 1929 at 4 Isla Street. Nan, their granddaughter, remembered seeing the hearse passing up Moncur Crescent, pulled by horses with purple plumes on their heads.

Note: In many cases the ages on documents do not correspond with the couples correct ages.

The oldest son, James worked in a jute-spinning mill before being apprenticed to Rough & Fraser, bakers, at the top of Hilltown where he served his time. Before marriage Jim attended the Bog Mission in Lochee and the family church of St Luke's Lochee but following the first world war never attended church again. By about 1904 he had already met Maggie Dobson but went off to Cape Colony serving there as a Police Constable in Port Elizabeth until 1908. When she wouldn't join him in South Africa, he returned to marry her. On his return he applied to join the local police but was only 5ft.10in. and they wouldn't accept anyone under 6ft. tall. He worked for a time as a conductor on the trams until the Lord Provost came on his tram ostentatiously paying his penny fare with a 1 note (remember 240 pennies in a pound in those days). Jim's comment was "I wipe my backside with these" and that job came to an end.

At age 5 or 6 Janet is reported to have said to her brother William, who was charged with taking her to school "We'll no go to that shitty scale the day eh no Willie!" When she left school, Janet worked in a jute mill. In later life Jim disagreed with Janet claiming that when she visited them on holiday she just sat about and didn't help Maggie enough. Janet was very much a rough diamond and, when they were young, amused her great-niece and nephew, (Sheila and Bill Valentine) with her stories. She and her husband always enjoyed weddings and always attended if they could. After Jim died, Janet stayed with Maggie whenever Nan and Willie (Maggie's daughter and son-in-law) went on holiday.

Helen (always known as Nellie) worked in various jute mills, latterly in the Boase Spinning Company (Boasies, as it was known) in Lorimer Street. Her journey home from there to her house in Clepington Road took her up Caird Avenue, a climb that she found increasingly difficult. This turned out to be the result of heart problems of which she died at age 58.

The youngest, Robert, in later life known to some as Uncle Rob and some as Uncle Bob, remained in the family home at 4 North Isla St. for the rest of his life. A docker, he married late (at which time Auntie Nellie moved out) and latterly lived on own for many years after his wife died. A thoroughly disorganised person he never got round to canceling "Womans Own" magazine. Rob was talented in many ways. He made violins and played them, painted landscapes and built quality furniture but rarely finished anything he started. No one was allowed into his house except when he was ill five years before his death when Bella & Nan changed his bed sheets. When he died he still had the same sheets on the bed! The house was full of tools, equipment for making violins, wood, varnishes, mixed in with things like bags of sugar, the whole lot being well cemented down with copious layers of dust. Behind one door, and full of moth holes, hung his Black Watch kilt from 1918. Despite the chaotic surroundings he himself always emerged from them beautifully dressed in white shirt, dark suit and with his white hair shining. He thought nothing of going to visit relatives at 11pm or later!

Willie became a sculptor before emigrating to Canada. (It seems likely that he was a monumental sculptor as there would not be much demand for sculptors in Dundee and the family could not in any case afford an artistic training). He was killed in Belgium during the Great War when he fought with a Canadian Regiment. His wife visited some of the family when she was brought over to see his name on the Menin Gate after the war.

David was reputedly a very good plumber but he began to drink heavily and was put out of the family home by James because of the worry this was giving their mother. He later married and lived in Rutherglen.

On leaving school, Richard worked in Dundee docks for a short time. Being a member of the Territorial Army, he was sent to France with the Royal Field Artillery at the start of the war in 1914. His first leave came in 1917! After his discharge in 1918 he returned to work with Dundee Harbour Trust before marrying in 1921. Their son, Dick was born the following year. A short time later Richard emigrated to Australia but didn't settle and returned shortly thereafter, taking up his former work as foreman dockworker.


David Webster Dobson and Anne Hanton.
David was born 9th Sept 1860 at Kirkton of Strathmartine. His parents, Ralph Dobson, a basketmaker, from Bridlington and Janet (or Jessie) Webster had been married in Dundee on 6th January 1849. David started work as a basketmaker but by age 20 had become a baker. He was not time-served in baking and in later life was on firing loaves only.

Ann was born 26th March 1860 at Kirkden, Friockheim to Charles Hanton (Freestone Quarrier in 1861 and Corn Miller in 1871) and Ann Brown. Charles and Ann had married in December 1825.

David and Ann married on 13 Dec 1879 in Friockheim, Kirkden.

In the 1881 census Ann is living in Friockheim with son Tom, aged 7 months, and her sister, Margaret, aged 14.

1881 Friockheim 298 dist. 3 page 4

Each line in the census gives: Name, Relationship to head of house (h = head,
w = wife, s = son, d = daughter etc.), male/female, age, trade or profession and Place of birth. The 1891 census has the additional column "Employed?" Which is marked with a cross if the person is employed.

Dobson 	Ann 	          h          m  20	  bakers wife 	    Forfar, Friockheim
Dobson  Thomas M          	 s          m  7mo.                     Forfar,Friockheim
Dobson  Margaret Hampton	sis         u   14      scholar         Forfar,Friockheim

David is in Blair Road Letham staying in the house of a James Langlands a retired farmer (now a feuar) and his wife along with two other bakers. Presumably all were working for the same bakery but whether this was owned by the Langlands or not is unknown.

The location of this house in Blairs Road is not known as the enumerator appears to have made his visits in an erratic fashion and previous censuses do not help. However it does seem likely that it still survives if only we could tell which it was.

1881 Dunnichen 283 dist. 2 page 11.
Blair Road, Letham

Langlands	James		h           m  62  feuar	                  Forfar, Dundee	
Langlands Catherine	w           m  58  feuars wife		Forfar, Kirkden
Sherrifs David		boarder  	   u  20  baker 	                  Forfar, Kirkden
Kinnear	Thomas    	boarder  	   u  20  baker	                  Forfar, Dundee
Dobson David       	boarder  	   m  20  baker	        	 	Forfar, Strathmartine

In 1882 Maggie Hanton Dobson was born on 25 March in Blairs Road, Letham. She was the first daughter in a family which was to have 3 girls and 6 boys. The others being: Tom born 1880, David born 1883 (who died at age 11), Charles born 1884/5, John born 1887 Andrew 1890, George born 1893 (who died at 31/2 months), Ann born 1895 and Isabella born 1897.

Of those who survived childhood, Tom died aged 23 following an accident at work on the railway. He received burns to his feet while handling a warming pan which contained coals and which was used to warm carriages. Maggie married James Fraser and their life is recorded elsewhere in this book. Charles (Chay) became a journeyman baker but died of wounds received in WW1 in Palestine where he is said to be buried on the Mount of Olives. John was an apprentice blacksmith before becoming a tenter in jute mills. (a tenter is a mechanic who maintains mill machines). Andrew was a traveller in the fruit business, working for, among others, Fyffe's Bananas. (His great niece, Sheila Valentine, got her first banana from him when she was about seven. Prior to this, because of the war, she had seen only pictures of this fruit and was under the impression that the inside would be clear or transparent). Ann (always Annie) became a furrier and tailoress in Dundee where she worked with Henderson & McKay in Whitehall Street, A.C.Little in High Street and D.M.Brown in Murraygate. Isabella (Bella) was a weaver before marrying Bill Luddington, a shoemaker from Northampton, who ran a cobblers business in Strathmartine Road, Dundee. Their son David, a sheet metalworker, emigrated to U.S.A. and at first stayed with his uncle, Charles Hanton. This Charles may been married to Belle.

The family had a reputation for moving around. Family and other sources mention Friockheim, Letham, Crachie, Arbroath, (22 Market Place Arbroath and 1871-78 Gravesend, Arbroath), Carnoustie and Forfar. They finally settled in Dundee by 1893.

The 1891 census found them in Forfar , 288 dist 23 page 23:
22 Don Street

Dobson	David		h  m  	 30		baker  employed		Forfar, Strathmartine
Dobson	Ann H		w  m  	 31					Forfar, Friockheim
Dobson	Thomas 		s         10		scholar		         Forfar, Friockheim
Dobson	Maggie H		d          9		scholar		         Forfar, Letham
Dobson	David		s          7		scholar		         Forfar, Friockheim
Dobson	Charles		s          5					Forfar, Arbroath
Dobson	John H		s          3					Forfar, Arbroath
Dobson	Andrew M     	s          1					Forfar, Carnoustie

Addresses in Dundee were: 3 Isla Street (1893), 105 Strathmartine Road (1903), 333 Strathmore Avenue (1930's).

Ann Hanton often helped local families with her skills as a midwife. She enjoyed sewing and made her family's clothes and many of her own. Ann gained a reputation for enjoying herself and liked going to pictures, making hats and going on holiday, two of her favourite places being Pitlochry and Calendar.

As a result of Ann's enjoyment in going out, her daughter, Maggie, was left with much of the work at home. To her brothers, Maggie was known as the "Sergeant Major" as she kept them in order and organised the house. She always seemed to enjoy keeping the house spick and span.

David (senior) later worked in the same Dundee bakery (DECS) as James Fraser his son-in-law. He was described as "a small man with ruddy cheeks who was quiet and mild mannered".

31. Anne Hanton/Hampton

Died 333 Strathmore Avenue, Dundee